Mr. Sawbridge rose, saying, he found the Speaker was unwilling to rise, but that he should not ask his opinion as a favour, but as a part of his duty, and, if the honorable gentleman (Mr. Dempster) was willing, he would make it a question, whether the Speaker should give his opinion or not?

The Speaker rose, seemingly very angry, and said, he was not used to be called on in that manner, and that he did not think it his business to give any opinion on the affair.

A strong debate ensued, in which Mr. Charles Fox, Mr. Dempster, Mr. T. Townshend, Mr. Dunning, Sergeant Glynn, and Sir George Savile, strongly contended, that the Bill was, to all intents and purposes, either a Bill to impose a tax, or to repeal a part of a tax, and therefore it was against a standing order, concerning the privileges of all money bills, originating in that House. Lord North, and the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, defended the Bill.

The question was then put, That the Bill be now read a second time;

The House divided: Yeas, 105; Nays, 29.

So it was resolved in the Affirmative: and the Bill was accordingly read a second time.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Resolved, That the House will, upon Tuesday morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, upon the said Bill.

TUESDAY, May 31, 1774.

Mr. Baker presented a Petition of Thomas Penn, Esquire, on behalf of himself, and of John Penn, Esquire, true and absolute Proprietaries of the Province of Pennsylvania, and the three lower Counties of New Castle, Kent, and Sussex, on Delaware, in America, setting forth, that his late Majesty King Charles the Second, by letters patent under the great seal, bearing date the fourth day of March, in the three and thirtieth year of his reign, was graciously pleased to grant unto William Penn, Esq., (late father of the Petitioner, Thomas Penn, and grandfather of the Petitioner, John Penn,) in fee, the said Province of Pennsylvania; the extent and bounds whereof were expressed in the said letters patent; and taking notice of the Bill for making more effectual provision for the Government of the Province of Quebec, in North America; and alleging that, from the best observations which have been made, and the most correct maps which have been laid down of those parts, and from other evidence, it appears, that the river Ohio, intersects a very largo tract of the Northwestern, Western, and Southwestern parts of the said Province, as granted by the said letters patent, the limits or boundaries whereof, in that part, have not, as yet, been allowed and confirmed by the Crown; and that, in order to have the limits and boundaries of the said Province ascertained, the Petitioners did, on the 27th day of March, 1773, present a petition to his Majesty, in Council, praying that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to appoint such disinterested persons in those parts, as his Majesty should think proper, to join with such persons as should be named by the Petitioners, to mark out and ascertain the Northern, Western, and Southwestern boundaries of the said Province; which petition has been referred, by his Majesty, to the consideration of the Lords Commissioners for Trade and Plantations, and is now under consideration of that Board; and that the Petitioners conceive that the said Bill will be injurious to them, if it should pass into a law, without containing some provision, that the same may not affect the Petitioners rights under the said letters patent: and therefore praying, that the description of the Territories, Islands, and Countries, to be annexed to the said Province of Quebec, may be so confined, as not to affect the Petitioners said Province; or that a provision may be made in the said Bill, that the same shall not affect the Petitioners Province, granted to them by the said letters patent: and that the Petitioners may be at liberty to be heard, by their Counsel, upon the matter of their Petition.

Upon the Petition being read, Lord North rose and said, that he should not think of opposing it, as it was never the intention of the Bill to affect the just rights of any proprietors, or of any of the Colonies.

Ordered, That the said Petition do lie upon the table, until the Report be received from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the said Bill is committed; and that the Petitioners be then heard, by their Counsel, upon their petition, if they think fit.

Mr. Mackworth. The Petition which I have in my hand, is from the merchants of London, trading to Quebec, who finding that a Bill is about to pass this House, which they apprehend will essentially injure them in their commercial transactions with that Colony, rely on the justice and the candour of this House to take their case into consideration. As to the merit, Sir, of the Bill, which is now coming before us, I must make this general observation, that a Bill which has confessedly taken nine years for Administration to consider of effectual means to remedy the evils complained of; such a Bill, Sir, surely will demand more time than a few days for the members of this House, to judge in what manner to give their vote. Information is what we want. I know not what opinion I am to form upon the necessity which can call for such a Bill, and for want of that information which ought now to be before the House. I cannot but condemn most sincerely several arrangements in the Bill, which seem destructive of that liberty which ought to be the ground-work of every constitution formed by this House; but I cannot judge what are the causes which call for such measures, while I remain go uninformed as at present. There were reports from the Board of Trade, to the King in Council, upon the state of the Province; there were representations from men in the highest offices in the Provinces, upon the proposed constitution to be given to it; there were opinions in writing from the Attorney and Solicitor Genera], upon the plans proposed; these papers would, if laid before us, give that information which we want, and without which it will be impossible for us to give any other than blind votes, which will, from every thing that we can at present see in the Bill, establish a most fatal system of Government in that country.

Mr. Mackworth then presented a Petition of the several merchants of the City of London, trading to the Province of Quebec, in North America, whose respective names are thereunto written, setting forth, that there is a clause in the said Bill, by which his Majesty's Royal Proclamation, and the grants and commissions issued in consequence thereof, will be revoked and made void; and that by another clause in the said Bill, all matters of controversy, relative to the property and civil rights of any of his Majesty's subjects of the said Province, are to be decided by the laws of Canada, and by the Judges presiding in the courts of judicature of that Province, without the interposition of a Jury; and representing to the House, that the system of government and administration of justice in the said Province of Quebec, which have taken place in consequence of his Majesty's said Royal Proclamation, have been hitherto, as nearly as might be, according to the laws of England, and such government and administration of justice have been perfectly satisfactory to his Majesty's subjects residing in the said Province of Canada; and the Petitioners conceive it will be highly injurious to his Majesty's said subjects trading to the said Province, to have the laws of Canada substituted in the place of the laws of England, and to have the trial by Jury abolished: and therefore praying (in behalf of themselves and others interested in the prosperity of the said Province) that the said Bill may not pass into a law, with the above-mentioned clauses remaining in it; and that they may be heard, by their Counsel, against, the same.

Ordered, That the said Petition be referred to the consideration of the Committee of the whole House, to whom the said Bill is committed; and that the Petitioners be heard, by themselves or Counsel, before the said Committee, upon their petition, if they think fit.

A motion was made, by Mr. Mackworth, that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before this House.

Copy of a Report made by Major General Carleton, Governor of the Province of Quebec, to his Majesty, relative to the state of the Province.

Copy of a Report made by William Hey, Esquire, Chief Justice of the said Province.