servations, with remarking that ignorance and folly are nearly allied; that to effect the latter we must be held in ignorance, and that by both, we would be the fitter to receive vigilance, activity, information, and knowledge, whenever the Minister thought proper to communicate one or inspire the other.

Sir William Mayne condemned the very extraordinary conduct of those in power, in withholding from the House the necessary information, or at least the best they had; and, laying his hand on his breast, solemnly protested he would never have voted for the Address without the proposed amendment, had he imagined they meant to refuse the necessary explanations on which the Speech was supposed to be founded.

Mr. Hartley rising to speak was interrupted, and informed from the Chair, that as there was no question before the House to debate on, gentlemen could not be permitted to proceed in such a disorderly manner. However, being desired to proceed, he quoted several instances since the year 1765, both by petition and otherwise, wherein the Americans offered to contribute towards the publick support, by way of requisition. He therefore submitted it to the consideration of the House, whether it would not be proper to suspend the operation of the late Acts relative to Boston, pro tempore, in order to see if the Colonists still continued to be of the same way of thinking; and if they did, then to have requisitory letters under the great seal issued, and directed to the several Provinces, requiring them to contribute in certain proportions towards the pub-lick expense.

Lord Beauchamp observed, that the present was no more than a desultory conversation; that he perceived the honourable gentleman mistook entirely the design of the late Acts, for they were not directed to the question of taxation, but were meant to apply as a particular punishment for certain outrages and acts of disobedience committed by the inhabitants of Boston alone.

Lord John Cavendish replied, that the present conversation, as originating with him, was not immediately connected with the propriety of the conduct of Great Britain or America, but was simply intended to prevent a deceit being put or practised on the House, by framing ideal estimates, which were afterwards, at a very improper season, perhaps, meant to be increased.

Lord Beauchamp reminded the House how very irregular it was to continue to debate in this manner; and said, that as the Army estimates were to be taken into consideration on the 16th, when probably the House would be full, and the noble Lord who could give satisfaction in this business, would be present, begged that any further consideration of it might be deferred till that day.

Captain Luttrell replied, that this was a very uncommon way of satisfying the House; for, by this mode of reasoning, if the noble Lord should not or could not attend, they must submit, and go to the country without any information whatever.

Mr. Rose Fuller said, a motion ought to be made before the holidays, for a. committee on the present state of America.

FRIDAY, December 16, 1774.

The Order of the Day being read, for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House, to consider further of the Supply granted to his Majesty,

The House resolved itself into the said Committee.

Lord Barrington moved, that a number of Land forces, including one thousand five hundred and twenty-two invalids, amounting to seventeen thousand five hundred and forty-seven effective men, commission and non-commission Officers included, be employed for the year 1775.

Mr. Rose Fuller desired to know in what manner the Troops serving in America were stationed; and what number were now on service at Boston, or were intended for it?

Lord Barrington answered, that the force now on duty there, consisted of seven battalions and five companies of Artillery; and ho knew officially, there were three battalions more ordered to join those at Boston,

Mr. Fuller said, that he had no motion to make, but should be glad to know from the noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, if he had any information to lay before the House, or any measures to propose respecting America; because, if he had not, he thought it the duty of Parliament to interpose and call for papers, and proceed on such information, however defective, as well as they could. He added, that he looked upon the measures adopted by the last Parliament, impolitick and impracticable; and that they could never be prudently or effectually put in execution.

Lord North confessed the very great importance of the subject now mentioned. He said it would require the utmost diligence and attention, as a matter of the greatest magnitude ever debated within those walls. He could not, he said, entirely acquiesce in the condemnation of measures hastily, which had been taken up and adopted upon such weighty motives; that at the time, it was impossible to foretel precisely how they might answer; but the shortness of the time, and other circumstances considered, they ought to have a fair trial before they were reprobated; and that the wisdom and policy of them could be only finally known in the event. He concluded by assuring the House, that he had information to lay before it, shortly after the holidays; and that he would so far adopt his honourable friend's ideas behind him, (Mr. Fuller,) as to propose to appoint a Committee for taking the affairs of America into consideration.

Mr. T. Townshend declined entering into any consideration of the present state of America; but desired to know from the noble Lord, whether the present estimates were meant to be real ones, or whether intended to be held out to the House and the publick, as very moderate; while they were to be led, unawares, into a heavy expense, under the heads of an increased Navy debt, services incurred, and not provided for, and perhaps a vote of credit?

Lord North replied, the forces now demanded were sufficient, unless from the conduct of the other Colonies it should be judged necessary to extend the line with respect to them.

Governour Johnstone said, I think a true determination upon this question can only be made after knowing the plan which the gentlemen in Administration are resolved to pursue, with respect to American affairs. It is now clear, that the people of America, actuated with the same firm and resolute spirit, and tinctured with the same enthusiasm which enabled our ancestors to withstand the unjust claims of the Crown, in the days of Charles the First, are determined to resist the high doctrines of Parliamentary supremacy, held forth by this country, which must, in its consequences, reduce their liberties to a lever with the Colonies of France and Spain. If we are resolved to adhere to those incomprehensible tenets, echoed with so much applause in the last Parliament, and on the first day of the present sessions, nothing but the sword can now decide the contest. In that event, it is in vain to suppose that the peace establishment of the Army now proposed will be sufficient; for every wise man must foresee, that our rivals in Europe cannot be idle spectators in such a scene. Supposing then, a sufficient force is employed to subdue the Americans, this country must be left destitute of the necessary defence. No man is less desirous of augmenting a military establishment than myself. I foresee that the liberties of this country must, in the end, fall a sacrifice to that power which has annihilated the rights of mankind in other states. Between the danger from abroad, and the danger from those who are to defend us, according to the present establishments of Europe, the situation is very nice. For, my own part, however wisely the military system is interwoven into our Constitution in time of peace, citizen and soldier happily intermixing with each other in equal privileges, yet upon an invasion, or a civil war, when men of high minds come to assemble in military camps, with the weapons in their hands, the contagion of power will soon spread; nevertheless, we must maintain (though with a watchful eye) a necessary force for defence, in case of invasion. I speak as a seaman, confident, that whenever France shall find an enterprising officer, capable of conducting such an attempt with skill and resolution, that the landing of an Army in this country is not to be prevented by all the Ships we can arm, while the elements continue so various, and the distance so short. There are several methods to accomplish this, which I shall not repeat here, from prudential motives; but I am so convinced of the truth of my assertion, that I consider it as the duty of every man in this country to be ready to dispute the fate of this