in his official capacity, under the seal of his office; and shall he now come to tell this House and the publick, that it passed without his approbation or participation? He then observed, that matters which had passed in that House Were frequently misrepresented without doors; but he was glad of an opportunity of testifying to the publick that it was on measure of his, perhaps ft was contrary to his judgment; but he reserved his sentiments on that subject to a future occasion; as what he meant now was, that let the measure be good or bad, all he wished was, that every Cabinet Minister who acted and deliberated in that capacity at the time of passing that law, should equally share the censure, if it was a bad one, or be entitled to an equal claim of merit if it were a good one. In reply to the other liable and learned Lord, he said he totally differed from him as to the commercial effect of that law; for if the law itself was wise and the principle it originated from expedient and equitable, the regulation was certainly no less so; for there was no other possible mode left of enforcing the Declaratory Law, (internal taxation being totally abandoned by the repeal of the Stamp Act,) but by laying on Post Duties. And be knew of none against which the noble Lord's objections would not lie as forcibly as those proposed to be levied by the Act under consideration. He lamented the misfortune, that the Administration he was connected with was the only one who wanted the assistance of the noble and learned Lord. He was certain that some of the preceding Administrations had profited of his great abilities; and though he was deprived of the support which might be derived from such sage counsels, he was happy that the Nation experienced the good effects in the aid he had given to some of the Administrations which preceded the one in which he was concerned, and perhaps, nay probably, the one that succeeded it.

Lord Mansfield feeling this as a direct attack, implying an interference in the publick Councils, endeavoured to exculpate himself from the charge. He said he had been a Cabinet Minister part of the late reign, and the whole of the present; that there was a nominal and an efficient Cabinet; that for several years he acted as a member of the latter, and consequently deliberated with the King's Ministers; that however, a short time previous to the Administers in which the noble Marquis presided at the head of Treasury, and some considerable time before the noble Duke succeeded him in that department, he had prayed his Majesty to excuse him; and from that day to the present he had declined to act as an efficient Cabinet Minister He said he had lived with every Administration equal good terms, and never refused his advice when applied to that particularly the noble Marquis must recollect his giving him every assistance his poor abilities were capable of affording; nor was it his fault that noble Duke did not experience the same; for had he been applied to he would have cheerfully rendered him every assistance in his power. That he had not changed his opinion on the present subject, he appealed, to every side of the House; for when the repeal of the Stamp Act was brought into it, though he wished to give the measures of Government every support consistent with his judgment and his publick duty; yet, foreseeing the consequences exactly in the same light they have since turned out, he voted against it; but assured the House that he took no other private or ostensible part whatever in that business; and so careful and studious was he to avoid least appearance of any thing of that kind, that he even returned a proxy that was sent to him against the repeal, sooner than seem to take any publick part against the King's servants. His Lordship likewise apologized to the noble Duke, and assured him that he had not the most distant intention passing any censure on any measure pursued in the Administration in which he acted; so far from it, that he highly approved of putting the Declaratory Law in to execution all he at most insinuated was, that the present Minister's plan was much better calculated for giving it effect, as it at once destroyed the temptation to smuggle, by deducing the duty from one Shilling to three Pence; for who would risk his whole property against such a trifling duty? or how was it possible that the smuggler could come to market upon equal terms, under all the circumstances attending that trade, with the fair importer.

The Earl of Shelburne, after taking a general view of both the previous and main question, respecting the propriety of hearing the Petitioners, and the madness of a civil war, upon every ground of justice, prudence, and sound policy, in a very able and comprehensive manner, said he hoped the day of inquiry and publick retribution would come, when the author of the present dangerous measures would be discovered, and of that despotick system which has governed our Councils for some years past, clearly developed. Candour obliged him to testify to the conduct and sentiment of the noble Duke, (Grafton,) that he was averse to the measure; and the day it was brought in as part of a Money Bill from the other House, never rose to support it, as the strongest mark of his disapprobation. 'He was certain the noble and learned Lord (Camden) equally disapproved of it; and, for his own part, who had then the honour of occupying a very high post in Administration, his sentiments were too well known to call for explanation. Ho said further, that his situation gave him an opportunity of knowing the sentiments of a very high personage, and he could affirm, from his own knowledge, that they were extremely favourable towards America. It was therefore a matter well worth knowing, and extremely deserving of inquiry, how this unexpected change was effected, and by what overruling, fatal influence, this great Empire was brought to the eve of being plunged into all the miseries and borrows of civil war.

Lord Lyttelton contended for the universality and unity of the British Empire over all its territories and dependencies, wherever its domination extended. He was severe on the noble and learned Lord (Camden) who spoke so fully on the dangerous consequences of constructive treason. He asserted those little evasions and distinctions were the effects of professional subtilty and low cunning; that it was absurd to the last degree to enter into such flimsy observations on this or that particular phrase or word, and thence draw deductions equally puerile and inconclusive, that the Colonies were not in rebellion. For his part, he should not abide by such far-fetched interpretations, he would be guided by common sense, and only consult the papers on the table, to prove beyond question that America was in rebellion. What! will any noble Lord in this House rise and tell me seriously, that a country is not in rebellion when it openly disclaims all obedience to the laws, all dependence on the Legislature! when they offer to appropriate the publick moneys to the very means of resistance! when they prevent the Courts of Justice from assembling, and the Counsellors appointed by the Crown from acting! Will any noble Lord pretend to say, that any or all of those are not manifest acts of rebellion? or that it is not treason in every obvious, substantial, and legal meaning of the word, to attack one of the King's Fortresses, make his. Troops render it up, and seize and convert the King's stores to the direct purposes of openly resisting his legal authority by force of arms? Are these acts of the most flagrant rebellion and treason? or are they, according to the ingenious doctrine and legal language of the noble and learned Lord, only to be construed mere misdemeanor or felony? His Lordship next entered into a very spirited defence of his noble and learned friend who spoke on the same side, and dealt his blows very liberally on all those who had attacked him. He bestowed the highest encomiums on his talents, integrity, and political conduct; and charged his accusers with being weak and evil counsellors, no less in their general sentiments than in their personal attacks. He recurred to his former arguments, and contended without reserve for the Legislative supremacy of Parliament over every part of the British Dominions in America, the East and West Indies, in Africa, in Asia, in every part and quarter of the globe, nay, over Ireland itself, if it should become necessary; the right of taxation and legislation being indivisible and unconditional, over every place to which our sovereignty extended.

The Duke of Richmond, condemned, in the most pointed and, direct terms, what his Grace called the inflammatory and ill-grounded representations of the learned and noble Lord (Mansfield.) He said it was very unbecoming the gravity and dignity of his situation, and of the several high relations he stood in to the state, to endeavour to inflame and mislead at so alarming a crisis. He observed that the noble Lord had laboured all in his power to prove the Colonies in rebellion; but for his part he did not perceive that he used one solid argument in proof of this cruel assertion; an assertion, in