the publick creditors would, at this period, be as desirous of receiving their capitals, as they were at the former to accept of the reduced annuities. I do, therefore, recur to my first assertion, that we must proceed slowly in the proposed reduction, or lay on new taxes, in order to effect our purpose with greater facility and expedition; for I repeat it, there is no other method of getting at the principal, but either by reducing it directly by specifick payments of the capital, or by being able, by the rise of the Fund, to lower the interest.

Mr. Hartley rose, chiefly to point out the impropriety of anticipating the produce of the Sinking Fund, and of charging more on it than it would be able to bear; the manner of making up the accounts at the Exchequer for the last year, which produced a surplus of two hundred thousand Pounds, or the total receipt of one week, with part of the Debt payed in by the East India Company, having swelled the Sinking Fund much beyond its natural size. That, therefore, the sum it was now rated at, was considerably too high. He next entered into a string of observations, relative to the ill-judged policy of pushing matters to extremity with America, and the probability, nay, the inevitable certainty, of the interference of France and Spain; and of a general European war, should the sword, be once drawn against our brethren on the other side of the Atlantic. He concluded with drawing a most melancholy picture of the consequences such an event must produce, in its operations on our trade, manufactures, finances, publick credit, external strength, and internal prosperity; reminding the country gentlemen, at the same time, that this would, in all probability, be the last year they would, even in time of peace, enjoy the benefit of a three Shillings in the Pound Land Tax, though they had been prevailed on to give their support to measures so evidently destructive of their own interest, and of the Nation at large, because they were, in the first instance, to bear no part of the additional burthens such measures were to create.

Mr. Vyner answered, that he was certain the landed gentlemen were not actuated by the motives imputed to them by the honourable gentleman; but purely from the apparent necessity of the measure itself, in support of which they were ready to risk any event, sooner than forego those advantages of trade and riches, which were inseparably involved in the supremacy of Great Britain over her Colonies; for were that once given up, the others would soon follow. In support of such a cause, therefore, he was willing to pay not only four Shillings, but fourteen Shillings in the Pound: and as he entertained not a single doubt but we should prevail in the contest, we ought to oblige America to pay the expense she had wantonly put us to, and which would likewise enable us to bring back our quondam Peace Establishment, that of a Land Tax of two Shillings in the Pound.

Mr. T. Townshend, after condemning the bad policy of reducing the Land Tax, from four Shillings to three Shillings in the Pound, some years since, as one great means of retarding the reduction of the National Debt, observed upon two items, for which his Lordship took credit; one was the sum of £17,000 charged on the sale of French prizes in the West Indies, the other a sum of £50,000, said to be the produce of sales of the Lands in the Ceded Islands, which have been voted regularly, year after year, since 1771; and had as regularly returned into the Ways and Means, without a shilling of them being actually brought to the credit of publick accounts.

Lord North replied, that one honourable gentleman seemed to delight in drawing a gloomy picture of the dreadful consequences of breaking with America. He said the predicted evils would be easily averted, by America returning to its duty. There had been an offer made which would at once obviate all difficulties, if they were sincere; if not, and they should pertinaciously refuse terms, virtually correspondent to their own ideas, the question would then he a very simple one; that is, whether they were to be independent, or whether we should avail ourselves of those rights we were indubitably entitled to, in order to secure to the Nation those great benefits derived from our trade and commerce with that country, which must be forever lost, if we acquiesced in the unreasonable and unnatural claims it now set up. As to the honourable gentleman's fears respecting a breach with our Colonies being productive of a French and Spanish war, his Lordship replied, that the wisdom and prudence of the French Minister would prevent him, as a friend to the interest of his country, to hazard any such experiment; nevertheless, France was an opulent, powerful Nation, abounding in native wealth and internal strength, and might break with us, either now or in the event of an American civil war, if she pleased, nor could he see how any mode of stating an account of debtor and creditor on the present, occasion, could possibly prevent it.

Governour Johnstone closed the conversation by observing, that though his Lordship was no conjurer to effect miracles by stating an account, it had always been customary with the Minister, on this day, to give a kind of state of the Nation, both respecting her finances, the terms she stood on with foreign Powers, and the general posture of affairs in Europe. This mode had been likewise adopted by his Lordship uniformly, since his coming into office; it was a matter of the first consequence to the commercial part of the Nation, as a means of preventing publick and private imposition, by preventing artful men from improperly operating on our Funds. The reason of the thing was as clear, he said, as the custom was invariable; and is it not for this very purpose, said he, that you admit the Merchants and Traders of London this day into your gallery. Besides, I remember on the last occasion of this kind, how much this House was edified, by the extensive knowledge, and minute information given by the noble Lord, respecting the political state of France, her annual revenues, encumbrances, &c. Then it was poor, weak, ruined, bankrupt France, unable to lift her head. Now, within twelve months, the face of things are changed; she is rich, powerful, and opulent; and we are told that we have no other assurance of the preservation of the publick tranquillity, not even for a day, or an hour, but the wisdom of her councils, and the prudence and political discretion of her Ministers. Whatever I might have thought of his Lordship's former account, I certainly agree with him in the latter; and though the Administration in that country be not yet formed, so as to act upon any permanent system, I believe as soon as that event takes place, we may expect to be engaged in a war with the two branches of the House of Bourbon; and I believe, likewise, the present approaching breach with our Colonies will be the means of accelerating it.

The Resolutions were agreed to.

Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.

Sir Charles Whitworth reported from the Committee, That they had come to several Resolutions, which they had directed him to report, when the House will please to receive the same.

Ordered, That the Report be received to-morrow morning.

Sir Charles Whitworth also acquainted the House, That he was directed by the Committee to move, that they may have leave to sit again.

Resolved, That this House will, upon Friday morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House, to consider further of Ways and Means for raising the Supply granted to his Majesty.

THURSDAY, May 4, 1775.

Sir Charles Whitworth, according to order, reported from the Committee of the Whole House, to whom it was referred to consider further of Ways and Means for raising the Supply granted to his Majesty, the Resolutions which the Committee had directed him to report to the House; which he read in his place, and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's table, where the same were read, and are as followeth, viz:

Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that any person or persons, bodies politick or corporate, who, on the 24th day of April last past, was or were possessed of, interested in, or entitled unto any Annuities, being part of the Capital or Joint Stock of Three Pounds per centum Annuities consolidated by several Acts of Parliament, of the twenty-fifth, twenty-eighth, twenty-ninth, thirty-second, and thirty-third years of the reign of his late Majesty King George the Second, and of several subsequent Acts which were made payable and transferable at the Bank of