Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum not exceeding one hundred and four thousand one hundred and thirty-six Pounds and six Shillings, be granted to his Majesty for defraying the charge of Levy Money, for the augmentation to his Majesty’sBritish and Irish Forces, for the year one thousand seven hundred and seventy-six.

Colonel Barré made some remarks on the noble Lord’s estimate, and particularly on some of his reasonings and deductions. He observed that his Lordship stated the establishment of the English battalions at Gibraltar, at four hundred and seventy-seven men; those at Minorca, at six hundred and seventy-seven men; the Hanoverians serving at both places, at four hundred and seventy-five men each; and those in America at eight hundred and eleven men. Why not at six hundred and seventy-seven at Gibraltar and Minorca both? Why not the Hanoverians at the same number? And why not those in America at eight hundred and fifty men, which was the usual number during the late war, with the same number of officers? He objected against the additional companies proposed by the noble Lord, and insisted, in the present state of the army, they were so much additional expense, without the least use. He said he should not range the wide field the noble Lord had travelled over; but to whatever motives he attributed the present disturbances in America, he was satisfied the great source was the ruinous consequences of patronage. Several great interests and connections were to be gratified, and a heavy peace establishment was formed to get rid of the army at home; it was sent to America, where it was not wanted; the weight of maintaining it was soon felt, and that shortly gave birth to the absurd idea of making America pay for it. This, he insisted, was the genuine fountain from which the disputes originally flowed, and would ever continue to flow, till the cause was removed. He observed that the account was fallacious, as the estimate now on the table would amount to full two millions; one-third of which, he ventured to contend, might be saved, if the battalions were made complete; that is, if, in proportion, there were a fewer number of officers, and more men.

He next turned to the ordnance and levy money; the former of which, he said, exceeded some of the years of the late war, in which our arms were triumphant in every quarter of the globe. He lamented the little information to be obtained from that Board; for several of the greatest Ministers and ablest men in this country, to his knowledge, had made the attempt, but in vain; everything in that department being in darkness and obscurity. The expense of the Ordnance service for this year was above four hundred and seventy thousand pounds; and no man could tell to what the account might be swelled. On the whole, he contended that the estimates were much short of the real expense, and insisted that nothing but the most urgent necessity, and the fullest information to justify that necessity, could warrant the representatives of the people to load themselves and their constituents with such heavy burdens. It had been all imposition from beginning to end, or some persons imagined they had an interest in pretending to be deceived. He quoted one instance, out of a hundred in his memory—the rank ignorance of sending troops to Canada in the month of October. [Here he was proceeding to relate some matter, when the gentlemen on the Treasury Bench began to smile.] He said he despised the spleen which created the silly observations on his story telling; it was beneath his contempt almost to take notice of them. However, he was astonished that Administration could fall into so gross an error; for, though the pride of the Navy was on this side the House, they had one officer [Pallser] to direct them, if they had thought proper to consult him; but to rectify this error, the noble Lord says that they are to pursue their voyage as soon as the transports are ready to proceed to sea.

Mr. Powys said he had hitherto voted with the Minister on American affairs in general, particularly for the Militia and augmentation of the Navy; but that when he did so he understood, and several other gentlemen understood the same, that before all the supplies were voted, the Minister would lay before the House his plan. From the beginning, he said, he understood the Minister so intended. If he had not thought so he would not have given his support to measures of which he was not to be acquainted. But now, not seeing in the noble Lord any disposition to give the information and satisfaction he desired, and had promised himself he was to receive, he supposed it was meant to vote the estimates first and hear the reasons afterwards; that is, that the House should begin with a division and end with a debate. He therefore moved that the Chairman do now leave the chair. This motion was seconded by

Sir Robert Smyth, who, not considering it as a motion hostile to Administration, with whom he had uniformly acted in this business, nor in any ways tending to retard those military preparations which he deemed so necessary to be made at this crisis; not wishing to relax the nerves of Government, when, in his opinion, they ought to be stretched to their utmost tone; but considering it as a motion proper to produce that pause to our proceedings until due information shall be brought before us. When he mentions information, he did not mean a few scraps of garbled and mutilated papers, but that verbal official information which he thought it the Minister’s duty to impart to Parliament. Perhaps the noble Lord would say that this was one of those arcana of State which properly belonged to the Cabinet, and which it would be imprudent to impart to a numerous popular assembly. He allowed the objection to have some weight if the dispute lay between sovereign Powers of equal authority, where the complicated interests of other States might be, in some measure, involved; but where the question lay between fellow-subjects equally interested in terminating it, he did not see the necessity of so much mystery and secrecy. It might be highly improper in him to ask, as well as impolitick in them to discover, the detail of their plan; but he only wanted to know whether they had any plan at all. With respect to Commissioners intended to be sent to America, he thought that not only the persons, but the nature and extent of the commission, should be made known, that Parliament might judge whether they were men proper to be intrusted with so important a negotiation, and whether the terms they carried out were consistent with the dignity of Great Britain to offer, and the interests of the Americans to receive. He had heard certain Governours mentioned, but could not help thinking them very improper men. He did not mean to cast any reflections upon a Governour, a very worthy member of this House, who, from his thorough knowledge of American affairs, was very well qualified for such an important trust; but Governours, as such, were obnoxious men to the Americans, he did not mean in an extensive sense, arising from their attachment and partiality to a popular Government; but that, for many years past, there had been continual struggles between the Governours and the Assemblies, which had been hastily called, and as abruptly dissolved; and the people ever considered Governours, from the nature of their appointment, more interested in asserting the prerogatives of the Crown than in maintaining the liberties of the people. Besides, they were fully persuaded that most of their misfortunes have arisen from the misrepresentations of Governours on this side the water. However the noble Lord may affect to treat this proposition of his honourable friend, he only begged leave to observe, that this was not the rash and hasty opinion of an inconsiderate individual, but the deliberate wishes and desires of many gentlemen of a most respectable description within the House, who expect to be called upon in a short time, almost personally, to contribute a large supply towards carrying on these measures.

Lord North did not give a direct answer, though he admitted the propriety of the gentleman’s reasonings who spoke last. He said a Commission would be sent, according to the intimation given at the opening of the session from the Throne; that the gentleman need not be uneasy that any treaty of concession would be agreed to without the approbation of Parliament; but it would be necessary to know upon what grounds the Americans would treat before the powers, sufficient to ratify what the Commissioners might think expedient, were derived from Parliament. When the terms that America was willing to submit to were in a state proper to be laid before the House, that, in his opinion, would be the proper time to take the sense of Parliament on previous communications, and leave it to judge of the alternative, whether the offers of America could be accepted with honour, or whether Britain ought to reduce them to a state of obedience, however hazardous the undertaking.

Mr. T. Townshend said, the noble mover had given him a strong lesson against great establishments, when his Lordship