laid every necessary information before their Lordships, and held back only that part which related to matters of mere private consideration, or where a disclosure of facts might endanger the safety or property of the persons concerned. On these general grounds, he was very unwilling that Mr. Penn should be examined; and upon none more than that his evidence might probably affect his own interests in America. It might create prejudices against him of a most fatal tendency. He was perfectly satisfied of the impartial, candid, disposition of that gentleman; yet, if it should appear that he had formed his opinion on the other side of the question, if any motion was to be made in consequence of those opinions, it would be necessary to call other evidence, before their Lordships could come to a determination; therefore, taking it in either light, he did not see what good purpose Mr. Penn’s examination could answer, or to what end it was ultimately directed.

The Duke of Richmond said, if the noble Earl meant seriously to go into the inquiry, and would pledge himself to the House that he would do so, he was very willing, on so important a consideration, to give up his motion for Mr. Perm’s examination, and rest on that assurance, that an inquiry would be set on foot, in order to come at that species of information so necessary to direct the progress of their future proceedings.

The Earl of Effingham observed, though the noble Duke had given up the point of order, he was perfectly satisfied that most, if not all, the witnesses examined relative to the Fishery Bill of last session were examined without any previous notice whatever being given.

Viscount Weymouth said, he never knew an instance where a witness was called suddenly to the bar, without previous notice; that it had been the established usage of Parliament to do so; and that a deviation from that rule now, would open a source of confusion in future, which it was the duty of every Lord in that House to do all in his power to prevent. But the main point, and that he would wish principally to press on their Lordships was, that if Mr. Penn was called to the bar and examined, it would have this effect, that after his evidence had been received, the noble Duke who called for the paper would probably frame some motion on the information then given, by which means, let that be what it might, the House would be led of course to come to some resolution, arising from what they had then heard. No man had a higher opinion of Mr. Perm’s impartiality than he had; but still, whatever he might impart to the House, either by way of information or otherwise, would be but the opinion and information of one man, who, however respectable, could not be supposed every way competent to decide, so as to govern the determination of that House upon a subject of such great and singular importance. He would, therefore, submit it to the noble Duke, if it would not be more proper to withdraw his motion, and appoint some future day for the discussion of a subject of such magnitude, on which other persons conversant in the present situation of America might be ordered to attend, and be examined at the same time with Mr. Penn, so that the whole of the information might be received and judged of together.

The Duke of Richmond replied, that it was always understood, when any noble Lord moved for a paper, he had some motion, directed to some particular object, to propose. That, he said, was his intention on the present occasion; but as the noble Viscount who had spoken last had pressed the impropriety of resting entirely on Mr. Perm’s evidence, he was very willing to have that gentleman examined for the present, and to postpone his motion till the next day. This, he presumed, would completely obviate the noble Lord’s objection against coming to any sudden resolution, barely on the information now desired.

Viscount Townshend insisted, that it was impossible to admit Mr. Penn to be examined on any ground offered by the noble Duke. He assured their Lordships, though he objected to Mr. Penn’s examination, he did not mean to impute the smallest degree of partiality to that gentleman; his evidence, however, must be very improper, as laying a foundation to ground a motion upon; because, be his information ever so impartial and well selected, it would still be no more than the limited knowledge or particular opinions of a single individual.

The Duke of Grafton lamented, in the most pathetick terms, the fixed determination that had in the course of the debate shown itself among the several members of Administration, to shut out every species of information, and to rush headlong on their own ruin, and (which was much worse) probably to hurry on the ruin and destruction of the nation. A noble Lord high in office [Lord Gower] seemed unwilling to consent to examine Mr. Penn, on the idea that it might affect his private interest, or that his evidence might affect persons now in America. He understood General Gage was daily expected home, and he presumed, if any information should be expected from him, the same apology would apply; his evidence might, nay, it must affect persons in America, for there the scene is laid, there the persons immediately concerned reside. What is this, but very plainly telling us that we are to have no information at all? For I will venture to contend, that if the present motion be rejected on the ground now urged, no motion of a similar nature, respecting the affairs of America, can possibly succeed. What is this, but giving us to understand that we must remain at the brink of that precipice, on which every true Englishman stands trembling, and waiting the instant in which the fate of his country shall be irrecoverably decided, and whither, I may add, he has been led blindfolded or compelled to grope his way? Are we, then, to trust to the same assurances by which one noble Lord was deceived, or shall we, like men who prefer the call of duty to every other consideration, endeavour to obtain lights in this business that have hitherto been denied us? For my part, though I have the misfortune to differ from the noble Lords in office, I am still open to conviction. I have been informed of some things, have heard a great deal, and have, according to the lights I have been able to obtain, formed an opinion; but I frankly declare, that on being better informed, I should gladly embrace the truth. I know no man better calculated to tell it us than the gentleman whose examination is now moved for; for, besides his known disposition to candour and impartiality, he has every possible inducement to reveal it, and not one single motive for suppressing or withholding it. Let me, therefore, entreat, nay, supplicate the noble Lords in Administration, to agree to the motion. On this point, surely there should not be a second opinion in this House. If your Lordships mean seriously, and will tell us fairly, that you have information to lay before the House, and will fix a time for submitting it to our consideration, I shall wait with pleasure, and rely in full confidence, on the faith of such an assurance. If, on the other hand, you tell us you have no information of your own. and that you are determined to reject all other, however important in its nature, at that instant I shall augur the worst, the most fatal consequences, from so unprecedented a mode of proceeding.

The Earl of Shelburne rose to rectify one or two trifling mistakes of the noble Duke who made the motion. He said that Mr. Penn was not of the religious profession his Grace seemed to allude to, nor was he proprietor of the Province of Pennsylvania; but he acted there in a character which, in every respect, fitted him to be one of the properest persons imaginable, not only to be publickly examined, but specially consulted. He acted there as Governour, by which he had the means of knowing the disposition of the people within his Government, and the strength of those who were for supporting the claims of the mother country, if any such there were. He must likewise know, in a great measure, the prevailing disposition of the whole American continent; as the place where the delegates and their followers chose to assemble was in the capital of that Province over which he presided. His Lordship entered shortly into the general reasons so often urged for examining Mr. Penn; and concluded with pressing on the noble Lords the propriety of acceding to the motion, or of promising to produce evidence on some future day. A refusal to so reasonable a request would, in his opinion, be fairly acknowledging that they were ultimately determined to withhold every species of information, and, consequently, to stifle every inquiry whatever.

The question being then put, it was resolved in the negative: Contents, 22; Non-Contents, 56.

The Duke of Richmond then moved, That the further consideration of the said Paper, intituled “Copy of the Petition of the Congress to the King,” delivered to the Earl of Dartmouth by Messrs. Penn and Lee, on the 1st